del's notepad

delacroix01 · Oct 25, 2015

Như tên thread, chỗ này sẽ là những kiến thức tớ thu lượm được trong quá trình học và dịch. Do những chi tiết này khó nhớ nên tớ sẽ post vào đây để tiện tra cứu. Đương nhiên là có nhiều mục sẽ chỉ có ích đối với tớ, tuy nhiên cũng sẽ có những kiến thức hữu ích đối với bất cứ người học tiếng Nhật nào. Những thứ tớ post trong này sẽ là những kiến thức vụn vặt, ko tiện lập thành topic riêng. Vốn dĩ tớ đặt topic note bên VNS và Hako, có điều những chỗ đấy giờ tớ ko có hứng vô nữa nên toàn bộ info sẽ được dời sang SA + sửa lại toàn bộ những chỗ lần trước copy/paste bị lỗi. Dù sao post ở đây cũng có ích cho nhiều người hơn là post ở 1 nơi mà gần hết member chỉ thích sử dụng machine TL hoặc học tiếng Nhật 1 cách hời hợt. Do lượng thông tin thu thập được khá lớn nên tớ sẽ phân ra nhiều post để tiện edit. Nếu ai có câu hỏi gì thì cứ post vào đây.

Section 1: Resources

Online dictionaries:
http://ejje.weblio.jp/
http://kotobank.jp/
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/?&_rd=1
http://tangorin.com/
http://www.alc.co.jp/
http://netyougo.com/ (for Internet slangs)
http://ex.nicovideo.jp/translator_info (for Internet slangs)

Quiz for beginners: http://study.kids.yahoo.co.jp/japanese/index.html

Danh sách kanji bậc tiểu học (Lớp 1=>6)
http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/NYAO/db/kanji/
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/学年別漢字配当表

Test: http://happylilac.net/sy-kanzi1h.html

Grammar books:

Code:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59319303/A%20Dictionary%20of%20Basic%20Japanese%20Grammar.pdf
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59319303/2%20Dictionary%20Of%20Intermediate%20Japanese%20Grammar.pdf
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59319303/A%20Dictionary%20of%20Advanced%20Japanese%20Grammar.pdf

Reading practice:
http://www.tofugu.com/2010/08/30/5-step-jlpt-study-method-using-japanese-newspapers-for-kids/
http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=8275

LN & VN recommendation for practicing:
- MiX!
- Infinite Stratos
- Kono Naka ni Hitori, Imouto ga Iru!
- Seirei Tsukai no Blade Dance
- True Tears

delacroix01 · Oct 25, 2015

Re: [JP] del's notepad

Section 2: Spoken Japanese

Tough guy prefixes

オウ!

Vowel shift

Kanto colloquial

Kansai/Chuugoku + fictional colloquial

delacroix01 said:
http://i.imgur.com/ojmoA8H.jpg
a/ Is わりゃ a Kansai way of saying わるいな?
b/ Is じゃの=だな? I'm supposing the man in black speak in a mix of Kansai and fictional dialects.
c/ Is 乗れや a Kansai equivalent of 乗れよ?

Smith said:
a. No. It means "You are ~~". われ is a derogatory or vulgar form of "you" in Kansai.
b. Correct.
c. Correct.

Smith said:
I did not mention the fact that わりゃ was the colloquial pronunciation of われは because 1) I just knew someone like you would understand it and 2) we had recently discussed それはそうよ　>>　そりゃそうよ　>>　そらそうよ.

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?p=7366#p7366

==========

delacroix01 said:
http://i.imgur.com/mU9uhpx.jpg
1. Is さらいよった the Kansai way of saying さらった?
2. Could you tell me the Kanto equivalent of ゆうとる? Is it いってる?

Smith said:
1. Close but it is more like さらいやがった. さらった sounds too plain with no connotations.
2. Correct.

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=22&start=1120

==========
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/31/41/30/07410.jpg

delacroix01 said:
1. Just to be sure, is イデェェよ=痛いよ?

Smith said:
Exactly.

delacroix01 said:
2. ヒカリお嬢さんがおらんようになってから
=>ヒカリお嬢さんがいないようになってから
This means "after ヒカリお嬢さん went missing", correct?

Smith said:
Correct.

delacroix01 said:
3. 組の者皆血気立っとりましてのォ
=>組の者皆血気立っていましたのだ
Am I right to assume that the verb of the line is 血気が立つ, and it means "to become extremely angry"? Dictionaries don't seem to have an entry for 血気が立つ, but they do have an entry for 気が立つ, and the word apparently mean "to get angry".

Smith said:
いましたのだ would not be said by a native speaker from any region. 立っていたんですよ/だよ or 立ってたんだ　would be the natural phrasings.

血気立つ is rarely heard around Tokyo. It may be a Kansaiism meaning "to become hot-blooded".

delacroix01 said:
4. じゃけど一番荒ぶっとるんは組長(オジキ)ですわ
=>だけど一番荒ぶってるのは組長(オジキ)ですわ
a/ In this context, does 荒ぶる mean the same as 怒る?
b/ I've looked up オジキ in a few dictionaries, and the highest possibility that I can think of right now is that it means "uncle" with a nuance of respect, although the man was referring to his boss, whose even surname is different from his. Does this mean that yakuza think of their group as a family?

Smith said:
a. Kind of, yes. It means "to be savage or unruly".
b. Yes, "family" is the key. From this page alone, I cannot tell if the two are actually uncle and nephew. That is still a possibility as your uncles CAN have different last names as yours. I have several uncles and none of them have the same family name as mine.

delacroix01 said:
5. 一昨日あたりから儂等でも手ぇつけられんのです
=>一昨日あたりから儂等でも手をつけられているのです
a/ Does 一昨日あたりから mean "since around the day before yesterday"?
b/ Does 手をつける mean "to start putting someone into a task"?

Smith said:
a. Correct.
b. No. It means "to handle (the boss)". He is too unruly at the moment.

IMPORTANT: You are reading 手ぇつけられん incorrectly. It is 手がつけられない. The boss is being so untouchable and unmanageable right now.

delacroix01 said:
6. アンタの情報いうんがええ話じゃとええんじゃけど
=>アンタの情報いうのがいい話だといいのだけど
I really can't figure out what this line mean exactly. I'm not even sure if I got the いうん part right. Could you tell me what he's saying?

Smith said:
Really? You changed the phrase into standard Japanese almost perfectly. Insert a と after 情報. (That guy now sounds more Hiroshima than Kansai.)

"I hope the information that you have got proves to be valid."

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?p=7379&sid=30567d7a2aad68bdccfbdf3c9f7cc7b1#p7379

==========

delacroix01 said:
http://i.imgur.com/iwsySLg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2cbF0pj.jpg
儂も犯人の目星はついとるけぇサクッと答えてみいや
7. I'm having a hard time trying to understand this line. As for 目星はついとる and サクッと答えてみいや, I can guess that they are like 目星はついてる and サクッと答えてみろ, but what does けぇ here stand for? Could it be から?
8. Finally, is 聞くけえのお = 聞くかな？

Smith said:
7. It is から.
8. More like 聞くからな.

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?p=7385&sid=30567d7a2aad68bdccfbdf3c9f7cc7b1#p7385

===========

delacroix01 said:
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/11/31/41/30/08010.jpg
a. ほうか=そうか, correct?
c. The last line of the page looks incomprehensible to me. Is the old man saying "Let's make it a deal", or was I wrong again?

Smith said:
a. Correct.
c. Correct.

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?p=7399&sid=1ee60602aad7fba47d529d5911f37aa6#p7399

=========

delacroix01 said:
http://i.imgur.com/MzNFMff.jpg
Is きちょります = きております?

Smith said:
Yes.

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?p=7465#p7465

=========

delacroix01 said:
http://i.imgur.com/Sp6IQge.jpg
Is 行かせちゃれ = 行かせてやれ?

Smith said:
Precisely.

delacroix01 said:
http://i.imgur.com/kiqTt5f.jpg
4. Does いったれや mean the same as いけ?
5. Similar to #2, is ぶち殺しちゃれや = ぶっ殺してやれ?
6. Does the word あんちゃん mean "kiddo" here?

Smith said:
4. Similar if not the same. 「いってやれ」
5. Exactly.
6. Right. "bro"

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?p=7481#p7481

じゃありません

Xưng hô hoặc nhắc tới vợ/chồng (IRL)

ありがたい

納得できない

Pitch change in compound words

n + b/p liaison

delacroix01 said:
Another thing I'd like to ask is the pronunciation of the ん syllable in certain words such as 新聞 or 先輩. I often see some romaji users write them as "shimbun" and "sempai", but when I watch anime, ん in those words sounds somewhere between n and m to my ears, and I actually hear more characters pronounce it as n rather than m, like in the previous video. Is this another negative point of using romaji to teach Japanese pronunciation? I normally would avoid using romaji as much as possible, but I think understanding this may help in evaluating the teaching of Japanese language outside Japan.

Tsuwabuki said:
My own experience is that the n/m sound in something sempai starts like an n but ends as an m, and produces a unique sound which is distinct from either letter in English. Again, much like what I said in the other thread about L/R, you need to just stop thinking about it as n/m, and start thinking about it as ん. I don't really think about things in terms of romaji at all, if I can help it, just as I try not to translate anything. I try not to use Japanese which has to be constructed in my head.

A lot of these questions seem like very unnatural language acquisition to me. It's like when I meet Japanese majors who can recognise all 2000 something joyo kanji and tell me what they mean, and their readings, but then completely fail to know how to use the words those kanji represent in day to day correspondence or the spoken words in general conversation.

This is why I have some issues with the Japanese English teaching methodology. Many students can pass a grammar test easier than some native speakers, but they are incapable of writing memos or having a telephone conversation.

This type of language learning is not effective.

Smith (important) said:
First, ん is a sound but is not considered a syllable at least in Japanese poetry such as haiku and tanka where syllable counts matter.

While we do not intentionally produce the "m" sound in 新聞 or 先輩, we do produce it unintentionally as a result for a smoother liason with the following bilabial consonants ("b" and "p"). Otherwise, there would be a highly unnatural moment of silence just before the ぶ and ぱ, respectively. The fact that we do not have a kana for "m" itself says a lot about how we perceive the momentary "m" sound in 新聞 or 先輩. In our minds, "m" does not really exist but it is used unintentionally when it is physically impossible to avoid just before a bilabial.

As you say, that is another downside of romaji. If an English-speaker sees an "m" in "shimbun", he will intentionally and actively produce that "m" sound, making his pronunciation of "shimbun" or "sempai" noticeably different from how native speakers pronounce those words. It will lack the "necessary" little first moment of ん that native speakers do produce without fail.

1 v�i vd lấy từ DC3 ep 1:

三分【さんぷん】
新聞【しんぶん】
先輩【せんぱい】

おはようございます

Shouts with no meaning

G sound (鼻濁音)

高ない

聞くからな

Affirmative じゃない

いや

でもって

～よ？

(This post will be subject to edit)[/quote][/SPOIL]

delacroix01 · Oct 25, 2015

Re: [JP] del's notepad

Section 3: Comparison & Contrast

婚約者 vs 許嫁

Phân biệt các kanji của động từ うたう

うーん vs ううん

Có 1 chi tiết nhỏ mà cực kỳ thiết yếu với bất cứ ai muốn học tiếng Nhật nghiêm túc hay muốn đú LN/VN thường xuyên: sự khác biệt giữa うーん và ううん (ở vị trí đầu câu thoại). Cái này tới khi đi hỏi sư phụ tớ mới biết. Lúc trước cứ nghĩ 2 cái như nhau và có 2 nghĩa, song thực ra lại ko phải vậy.

顔を赤らめ、ごにょごにょと口ごもるお嬢様。
そんなクレアの姿を見て――
カミトは、ちょっと意地悪してみたい気持ちになった。
(……うーん、ついからかいたくなっちまうんだよな、こいつは)

Kamito「そっちは大丈夫そうか？」
Fianna「……うーん、儀式用の祭具がどうしてもかさばっちゃうのよね」

2 vd trên lấy từ trang 30 và 32 của vol 4 Blade Dance. Nếu dịch ra tiếng Anh thì うーん sẽ là "hmm" hay "well". Ở vd thứ 1 thì tớ đoán đúng, tuy nhiên ở vd 2 thì tớ lại tưởng là "no", căn bản vì nghe rất có lý. Có điều tớ đã lầm.

Smith said:
No. You may be thinking of ううん.

This うーん　means "hmm", "well", or even "ya know"

Như vậy chỉ 1 khác biệt nhỏ trong cách viết là đã ra 2 từ khác hẳn nhau về nghĩa. Vậy thì phân biệt bằng cách nào?

Thực ra nếu biết được chi tiết tớ vừa nêu thì vụ này ko quá khó. Nếu để ý sẽ thấy ううん luôn được đọc thành 2 âm liên tục (う/うん). 2 âm này là âm mũi và khoảng cách giữa 2 âm gần như zero nên cần chú ý khi nghe (với drama CD hay anime). Với うーん thì kéo dài âm う ra rồi lướt tới ん (ko có khoảng ngừng).

Khác biệt nói trên 1 lần nữa minh chứng cho tầm quan trọng của nguyên âm dài trong tiếng Nhật, 1 yếu tố rất quan trọng mà người học tiếng Nhật thường ko để ý hết.

V (plain) vs お + V (noun form) + する

Cách sử dụng động từ theo lối đơn giản và lịch sự: V (plain) vs お + V (noun form) + する. Ở đây lấy vd với 手伝う.

Mona89 said:
Can you please provide more info on the contexts where we can use 手伝う or お手伝いする？

Smith said:
The only difference is in the degree of politeness expressed by the speaker. The meaning is the same for both. Which one to use depends mostly on:

1. Who you are speaking to and/or about.
2. What kind of language you normally use with others. By that, I mean to say that not everyone speaks the same way in any language. Some people will always speak more politely than others.

Use 手伝う:
1. Between close friends
2. Between family members
3. Older (superior) to younger (inferior)

Use お手伝い（を）する:
1. Between two strangers (← Japanese-learners' weak point. They often do not know that we native speakers speak fairly politely to complete strangers. Japanese-learners tend to think only of "younger person to older person" when they think of polite speech in Japanese.)
2. Younger (inferior) to older (superior)

Exceptions:
1. Even between close fiends, many adult speakers would still use the お.
2. Between family members, the お is often used if either the speaker or listener is a very small child.

Chú ý là nếu sử dụng する/します thì trợ từ là を, còn nếu dùng したい thì trợ từ là が. Cả 2 đều có thể lược đi, nhưng nếu đã dùng thì phải dùng cho chính xác.

Update: with 連れる

delacroix01 said:
http://i.imgur.com/61U3d8p.jpg
Just to be sure, お連れしました has the same meaning as 連れた but more polite, correct?

Smith said:
No. One cannot say 連れた here. It is 連れてきた. <--- IMPORTANT

delacroix01 said:
Oh, I totally didn't expect this. Does this mean that the prefix お also has the same function as the auxiliary verb くる?

Smith said:
No not at all.
The お is for politeness and the くる is just a must in saying "to bring a person somewhere. One cannot use 連れる by itself to say it. It is always 連れていく or 連れてくる.

delacroix01 said:
I'm not sure if I'm going on the right track, but now it looks to me that both お and くる state that the second person is the receiver of the action ("I've brought him here for you"). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Smith said:
Correct.

delacroix01 said:
Now it looks like I've misunderstood the difference between plain forms and polite forms all the time. If I sum up from what you have explained, in casual language, we must add いく or くる to the verb after conjugating it into its て-form.

Smith said:
That is not what I meant to say. I was not talking about all verbs: I was merely talking about 連れていく/連れてくる because it appeared that you thought one could say 連れる all by itself to mean "to bring a person to a place".

delacroix01 said:
Yet in the manga, what I saw is お+verb stem+past conjugation of します. Does this mean that the ます/ました forms express the same idea as the formula て-form+auxiliary verb (without regards to the polite level)? Or maybe the reason is that the verb 連れる is kind of special?

Smith said:
Again, no, that is not what I meant to say. I was trying to imply that it is not always easy to form the polite form of a verb. e.g. 行く　>>　参る/伺う.
連れる is in the same general "more complex" group. To make it polite, you must use the noun form お連れ　plus the verb する.

delacroix01 said:
Also, may I ask about the difference between V+いく and V+くる? My guess is that いく expresses the direction, while くる is about the destination of the action. To tell the truth, this is one of the important grammar points that I'm still weak at, so I'm not really sure if my assumption was right.

Smith said:
Basically correct but trust me, you will still make mistakes with いく/くる. I have seen people say something like "Oh, it's the same in English." but that is not the case, which is why Japanese-learners are making the same mistakes all the time with these two verbs.

The thing that is lacking in Japanese-learners' way of thinking is the "standpoint of the others". This can be the listener or a third party. "Whose standpoint are we speaking/writing from?" is the ultimate question in Japanese and that will decide whether いく or くる will sound more natural.

So, make lots of mistakes and have language-conscious native speakers correct them. That should be far more efficient than trying to cram the rules, which is what so many language learners do unfortunately.

Discussion starts from

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?p=7385&sid=30567d7a2aad68bdccfbdf3c9f7cc7b1#p7385

～に逃げられた vs ～を逃した

断言する, 言い切る and 宣言する

～て欲しい vs ～たい

(This post will be subject to edit)

delacroix01 · Oct 25, 2015

Re: [JP] del's notepad

Section 4: Classical Japanese

君 trong cổ ngữ

Trợ động từ「り」

(This post will be subject to edit)

delacroix01 · Oct 25, 2015

Re: [JP] del's notepad

Section 5: Grammar

Cơ bản về trợ từ

YukiGuni said:
が=the nominative case/subject marker,
を=the accusative case/object marker,
の=the genitive/possessive case/preposition "of",
に/へ=the dative case/prepositions "to" "in" etc.,
より/から=the ablative case/preposition "from" "by" etc.,
で=preposition "with" "by" "in" "at" "on" etc.,
と can be used to connect words/sentences... also used as a quotative particle...
For more, I think you might want to see these pages:

Code:

http://nihongoichiban.com/home/japanese-grammar-particles/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_particles

1 số vd về cách sử dụng trợ từ が:

YukiGuni said:
お兄さんは、背が高いです。(describing physical features)
私は、サンドイッチが好きです。(like~/want~/need~ etc)
私は、数学が得意です。(strong and weak points)
ボクは、ひらがなが読めます。(can do/cannot do)
来週、運動会があります。(events)
私は、お金がありません。(possession)
今日、私の家に、先生が来ました。(subject marker)
机の上に、りんごがあります。
昨日、東京で、雨が降りました。
２回で、ユキさんが本を読んでいます。

Những chỗ tớ bôi xanh là những chỗ có thể lược bớt.

Update:

HTML:

この点、ナイ教授はソフトパワーが損なわれる場合として、政策の傲慢、鈍感、偽善を挙げているが、一国の国内政策にしろ、外交政策にしろ、それが偽善的だ、傲慢だ、他国の意見に鈍感だ、国益に関する偏狭な見方に基づいているなどとみられた場合、ソフトパワーが損なわれてしまう。

Enteh said:
Why did the author use が here? There isn't any contradiction in two phrases at all... (or at least that what I think)

Smith said:
Because が does not always mean "but" as many Japanese-learners seem to blindly believe. It just means "and" half the time.

See #2 in: http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8&p=が&dtype=3&dname=2na&stype=0&pagenum=1&index=00626500

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?p=7573#p7573

Cấu trúc やっぱり～～かな/かしら

の／が substitution

Passive voice with から

欲しい

欲しい／欲しがる

～ていたい

～ってやつ

げ as a suffix

Adj + げに／欲しがる

Seirei Tsukai no Blade Dance vol 4 page 37 line 3 said:
プラチブロンドの髪を、誇らしげにかきあげるリンスレット。

Mới đầu thì tớ nghĩ cái げ ở đây giống cái げ nói trên nên đã thử dịch 誇らしげに thành "seemingly proud", có điều thấy ko chắc nên đi hỏi lại và kết quả là:

Smith said:
No. It simply means "proudly".

Đồng thời:

Smith said:
I knew immediately that you were trying to translate that げ part and came up with "seemingly". Try to think of it this way.

In English and many other languages, it is not only okay but is correct to say both "I want a new car." and "Smith wants a new car.", right? In Japanese, you can say 「ボクは新しい車が欲しい。」 but cannot say 「スミスは新しい車が欲しい。」.　For the latter, you must say 「スミスは新しい車を欲しがっている。」.　In Japanese, it is not considered very good to speak directly of another person's desires, feelings, sensations, etc. as if they were your own. Insightful learners might be able to "feel" that the change in the particle above alone would indicate that these two correct sentences represented 'different' concepts for us Japanese-speakers.

The げ in 誇らしげ works just like the がる in 欲しがる.　 The げ and がる are there because, in each case, the speaker is talking about another person's desire, feeling, or sensation.

Cheat sheet:
「I do something 誇らしく.」
「They do something 誇らしげに.」
「I 欲しい something.」 Use が after the object.
「They 欲しがっている something.」 Use を after the object.

Tóm lại nếu sử dụng ngôi thứ 3 (tường thuật / miêu tả việc người khác làm) thì phải sử dụng dạng げに thay vì dạng く, còn diễn tả ý muốn của người khác thì dùng を欲しがっている. Chú ý là do tính linh động của trật ngữ pháp trong tiếng Nhật nên trợ từ を ko nhất thiết nằm trước động từ mà có thể nằm cách 1 khúc phía trước hoặc nằm sau, tùy theo tân ngữ nằm ở đâu.

なんて

なんと

なんか

及び

Verb + たて

～並み

もっとも～だが

なにげなく

先 as a suffix

先に／先の

～は… (unsaid words)

～ないしは～

殿 (どの)

君 and 僕 (important for song TLs)

delacroix01 said:
This is something that has been on my mind for over a year. The two personal pronouns 僕 and 君 are used very frequently in contemporary music, and in many cases, the songs I hear that use such pronouns are about love and are sung by female singers (for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-h6Vy9vHbA). Do the two pronouns suggest gender like they would in conversations, or are they used with different meanings? This site says that 僕 and 君 have a poetic sense, so I'm wondering if this is the case.

This is an important question to me because I always find it difficult to decide which personal pronouns I should use whenever I attempt to translate a Japanese song into my first language. Unlike English, most personal pronouns in my mother language is gender-specific, which is a big headache when it comes to song translations, so it will be a great help if I can get the Japanese pronouns clear.

Smith said:
A very difficult question and one that is often answered incorrectly on the internet to my dismay.

君 is much more often used in creative writing like song lyrics and manga than in people's daily speech. In real life, we use the other person's name or nickname WAY more often. Presently in real life, 君 is much more often used by men to address women than the other way around. However, in the world of creative writing, 君 is gaining popularity among female characters in addressing male ones. Regarding the poetic sense, I DO NOT agree with that website at all because it is more about the context than the pronouns.

One thing that the vast majority of Japanese-learners, even the ones that have been residing in Japan for up to a year or so, are not aware of is that many of the Japanese that they get to talk to and/or are taught Japanese by tend to use pronouns way more often than the "other" Japanese even though the "other" group outnumbers the pronoun-users by a landslide.

delacroix01 said:
Now that you mentioned it, in recent years, I have noticed that there's a rising number of female anime characters who address males as 君. Regarding 僕, does it suggest the gender of the main character of a song? Sometimes I find it difficult to conclude if the lyrics are the words of a guy or a girl. For example, this song is sung by a female singer, but uses 僕 as the first-person pronoun, and has lines that sound like what a guy would say, like ずっとキミヲマモル. While this doesn't matter with English translations at all since "I" is the only first-person pronoun, it's the primary concern when it comes to translating to a highly gender-conscious language as my first language, so I'm hoping to find a way to solve it. :?

Smith said:
I listened to the song and it is a song in which a male speaks to a female. In Japanese culture, the gender of the singer does not matter the least bit. It is the lyrics that matter. You will hear male singers singing the emotions of a female and vice versa.

Examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfls4tcjhbE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CxIYJ9X_GI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b3x5-RMNsQ

Smith said:
In this very popular song, the female singer sings both ways with parts of the song from the male point of view and the other parts from the female's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu_Dlu0Wk70

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=22&start=1220

Bổ sung về trợ từ に

Using ～か to link sentences

Two forms of causative passive

Furigana with special readings

～する気

これで

～てはじめて

それだけ

～ていく

Plural meaning of 奴

～てもらう

delacroix01 said:
For the past few weeks I have been reading Tae Kim's grammar guide, and for the most parts what he wrote seems to be right. Still, there are some sections that don't sound very convincing to me, for example:

Tae Kim said:

4.14.4 When to use 「もらう」

「もらう」 meaning, "to receive" has only one version unlike 「あげる／くれる」 so there's very little to explain. One thing to point out is that since you receive from someone, 「から」 is also appropriate in addition to the 「に」 target particle.

Examples
(１) 私が友達にプレゼントをもらった。
- I received present from friend.
(２) 友達からプレゼントをもらった。
- I received present from friend.
(３) これは友達に買ってもらった。
- About this, received the favor of buying it from friend.
(４) 宿題をチェックしてもらいたかったけど、時間がなくて無理だった。
- I wanted to receive the favor of checking homework but there was no time and it was impossible.

「もらう」 is seen from the perspective of the receiver, so in the case of ﬁrst-person, others usually don't receive things from you. However, you might want to use 「私からもらう」 when you want to emphasive that fact that the other person received it from you. For instance, if you wanted to say, "Hey, I gave you that!" you would use 「あげる」. However, you would use 「もらう」 if you wanted to say, "Hey, you got that from me!"

(５) その時計は私からもらったのよ。
- [He] received that watch from me.

Click to expand...

From my own experience, this does not look like all there is to the verb もらう, especially when it is used after a て-form verb, e.g. 返してもらう is a line that I often see and hear, and it always sounds like the speaker is going to take something back with his/her own judgment (sometimes even by force), not considering it a favor at all. The line sounds like "I'm going to have you give it back to me", and ～てもらう in general sounds like "to have someone doing something". Could you please tell me if I got anything wrong? This is an important grammar point and I need to be clear about it.

Smith said:
Excellent question! While Tae Kim actually generally does a good job of teaching beginning-level Japanese, people should know that s/he is a Japanese-learner him/herself. When s/he speaks freely in Japanese in the non-lesson parts of his/her website, s/he makes quite a few mistakes and uses very unnatural phrasings.

That said, what you have stated is correct. もらう/あげる/くれる are much more complex in reality than many Japanese-learners would tend to think because they have only been taught limited usages of those super-important verbs. A thick book can be written on the three verbs alone.

There are times when we native speakers use "verb + もらう" as a softer (and sometimes not even so soft) form of imperative. In fact, it can be used to order people around. However, books and teachers usually will only say that もらう is used to express "a voluntary favor" from someone. 　

BTW, Kim's sentence #5 above sounds pretty unnatural to me. It is 100% grammatical but who would say it in real life? It sounds very patronizing and it does more than just "emphasize on who gave you the object" as Kim says.

Đây cũng là lý do cấu trúc ～てもらう hay được dịch thành câu cầu khiến.

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?p=7494#p7494

っていうか + なんか違う

delacroix01 said:
「……ごめん、諏訪くん」
「…………」
「気持ちはうれしいし、諏訪くんのことは『友だち』として好きだけど」
「うん……」
「でも、そういう目で見ることはできないっていうか、なんか違うっていうか」
「…………」

When っていうか is used multiple times in a sentence like this, is it for expressing uncertainty of the speaker? I'm reading the last line of the first speaker as "Still, I can't see you as a love interest, or how should I put it...", but I have little confidence about this (maybe I don't really understand the nuance of なんか違う here).

Smith said:
Yes, っていうか expresses what you said and I must stress that we use it very often.

なんか違う is very difficult to translate but it certainly express the speaker's slight disapproval, discontent, dissatisfaction, disagreement, etc. It expresses a discrepancy between two things. Here, it is saying "I do not see you exactly the same way that you see me."

delacroix01 said:
Um, is that the interpretation of the whole line or just なんか違う? If that's about なんか違う, then it sounds about the same as そういう目で見ることはできない, and is still confusing to me Is the speaker trying to rephrase the part そういう目で見ることはできない but she simply doesn't know how to say?

Smith said:
The whole line.

なんか違う, as I stated last time, is almost impossible to translate by itself because we use it in so many different situations. A larger context would probably not be of help, either. Its main nuance, however, is that something looks/feels different from what one expected or thought would be ideal.

It is also more than possible that the speaker said なんか違う because 1) she was not able to come up with a clearer phrase or 2) she wanted to make it sound vague for not wanting to hurt the guy's feelings.

2) would be my best supposition so far.

delacroix01 said:
Thank you very much for the explanation I probably should mark the phrase for special attention since I may see it again in the future.

Smith said:
Good idea because we really cannot go two days without saying なんか違う、なにか違う、どこか違う、どっか違う, etc. once. The omitted particle, of course, is が.

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?p=7522#p7522

Vd lấy từ MiX! vol 1 chapter 1.

どうも at the beginning of a sentence

～かぎり / ～限り

言われてみると / 言われてみれば

～てそろえる

大の～ & ～好き

いつまでも...しない

～としては

～をこめて

Nghĩa khác của もう

Name + 宛

(This post will be subject to edit)

delacroix01 · Oct 25, 2015

Re: [JP] del's notepad

Section 6: Trivia

〆／乄

Ringo x Mittsuboshi

Some slangs

Non-standard compounds

決める

ふり / ふる

==============================================

Grammatical analysis for Fetishism Ark's lyrics

Rough translation

==============================================

Grammatical Analysis for Broken Moon - Inochi

Sentence Analysis for Josei Danshi 01

A/

天使の声。人々にそう言わしめた一� � �の歌姫がいた。

Nếu sử dụng 1 cái từ điển quốc ngữ của Nhật để tra từ 言わしめる thì ta sẽ được 1 từ gần nghĩa là 言わせる. Tuy nhiên sắc thái 2 từ này ko hoàn toàn giống nhau. しめる là 1 trợ động từ có nghĩa gần giống ～させる. Nếu đem so sánh thì 言わしめる nghe có vẻ văn chương và kịch tính, trong khi 言わせる thì không có tạo thêm hiệu ứng gì cả.

B/ Tưởng tượng 1 cái context như sau: 1 đám vừa lên cấp 3 chưa lâu. Giờ âm nhạc, giáo viên bước vào lớp và bảo hôm nay kiểm tra hát. Khi đó có 2 thằng nói như sau.

1. 高校生にもなって歌のテストとかあ� � �えねーし
2. 選択音楽にするんじゃなかったー

Ở câu 1 thì cái にもなって là thành phần cần chú ý. 高校生にもなって = dù đã thành sinh trung học = dù đã lên cấp 3 => Nghĩa cả câu: "Lên cấp 3 mà vẫn còn kiểm tra hát thì đúng là không đỡ nổi".

Câu 2 thì khả năng gây nhầm lẫn cao. Lúc đầu tớ tưởng ý thằng nói là "hóa ra trường này môn âm nhạc là bắt buộc, không phải tự chọn", tuy nhiên không phải đơn giản như thế. Ở đây có 1 cái trợ từ bị lược đi (dạng cực kỳ phổ biến trong văn nói). Thêm を hoặc は vào sau 選択 ta sẽ ra nghĩa cả câu: "Đáng ra ko nên lựa chọn âm nhạc (làm môn theo học)".

C/ Khác với sách giáo khoa, trong manga/anime/novel, ta thường xuyên bắt gặp tiếng Nhật theo kiểu non-standard. Nếu xét theo ngữ pháp thì những lối nói này là sai, tuy nhiên trong đời sống thì ta gặp rất nhiều (kiểu như dân VN nhiều người xài tiếng Việt be bét ra), chẳng hạn スゴイよかった thay vì すごくよかった.

D/ 聞きいった = 聞き入った => Nguyên mẫu : 聞き入る (nghe là mê, nghe là ngất ngây ~~như con gà tây~~)

Hayate no Gotoku 178 sentence structures

Why dictionary translations kill you sometimes

Trong tiếng Nhật ko thiếu gì những trường hợp khiến việc sử dụng từ điển để tra nghĩa trở nên vô dụng. Hôm nay trong lúc ngồi giúp 1 bạn trẻ dịch tớ lại gặp 1 câu như vậy.

Corpse Party Musume

誰よりもお前の事わかってやれるつ� �りだ

Ko một từ điển nào có thể giúp 1 translator dịch đúng nghĩa của cụm わかってやれるつもりだ, đơn giản là vì nghĩa của cả cụm ko giống với nghĩa của từng thành phần. Lúc mới đọc thì tớ cũng chỉ suy được やれる là potential form của やる, ngoài ra ko nghĩ thêm được điều gì. Nếu dịch trực tiếp thì ta sẽ có 1 câu khá ngớ ngẩn: "I intend to be able to understand", còn nếu đoán bừa thì 99.99% là bạn sẽ đoán sai nghĩa. Cả câu ko hề có từ mới, nhưng nghĩa của nó lại nằm ở mức độ mà chỉ những người bản ngữ hoặc có trình độ gần bằng mới hiểu đúng.

Smith said:
Whenever what I call a magic verb （やる、あげる、もらう、くれる、� �く、みる, etc.） is attached to another verb, the whole verb phrase gains important nuances that make "direct translation" very difficult.

わかってやれる is, of course, the potential form of わかってやる. わかってやる is the "tough guy's" form of わかってあげる. Thus, わかってやれる means the same thing as わかってあげられる.

"To be able to understand", as you said, would be the direct TL of わかってあげられる/わかってやれる but it sounds clearly weak. Its "true" meaning is "to be able to empathize with ~~".

"To intend to", IMHO, is also too direct a TL. I would go with "to expect to" or even "I am certain that I could ~~". I recommend the latter as that is the nuance of つもりだ in the context.

So, I would come up with something like "I am certain that I would be able to empathize with you."

Book evaluations

1. 500 mẫu văn phạm tiếng Nhật trung cấp" - Trần Việt Thanh

Smith said:
Code:

1. あの人について私は何も知りません。 2. この町の歴史についてちょっと調べてみようと思っている。 3. この日本文化史についてレポートは大変よくできている。 4. 昨日の小論文の試験は「私の国の教育制度について」という題だった。

Only #3 is incorrect. It needs a の after the ついて. The others are not only correct but also very natural-sounding.

Code:

1. この問題に関してはさまざまな方面から意見が寄せられた。 2.「本件に関しては、現在調査中でございまして、結論が出るまでにはもうしばらく時間をいただきたいと思います。」 3. 今回の「余暇の利用」に関してのアンケートはとても興味深かった。 4. この論文は日本の宗教史に関する部分の調べ方が少し足りない。

All correct.

Code:

1. 小林先生は勉強が嫌いな学生に対して、とりわけ親しみをもって接していた。 2. この賞は特に女性の地位向上に功績のあった人に対して贈られるものです。 3. 「今のランさんの発言に対して、何か反論のある方は手を挙げてください。」 4. 青年の、親に対する反抗心は、いつ頃生まれ、いつ頃消えるのだろうか。

All "correct" but they could have done better with their punctuations.
1. No comma needed.
3. No comma needed but I cannot say the use of a comma is wrong because it is a quote and the speaker may have actually used a pause there.
4. Too many commas used. I myself would use none. If I had to use one, I would use it after the 反抗心は.

The book also stated that について is often accompanied by verbs like 調べる、書く、考える、聞く、話す, and に対して is often followed by words expressing opposition such as 反抗、反論、抗議. Is this information valid?

Click to expand...

It is valid to a large extent but one can use 反論 and 抗議 with ～～について as well.

beak said:
delacroix01 said:

The problem is that none of the staff behind the book is Japanese, and some of the examples sound odd to my ear, so could someone please evaluate them?

Click to expand...

I recognize these sentences because they are all from どんな時どう使う日本語表現文型500, the authors of which are Japanese (as far as I can tell). Is that not the book you're reading?

(By the way, the の missing from #3 is present in my copy, so I assume it's a typo.)

Vd lấy từ 4 trang đầu phần nội dung sách. Theo đánh giá thì có thể kết luận đây là sách dịch lậu từ sách của Nhật. Ngoài mấy lỗi nói ở trên thì sách còn sử dụng romaji thay vì furigana (chắc do in từ năm 2004), bản dịch tiếng Việt của các vd nghe khá cứng (khả năng 90% là dịch từ tiếng Anh), đồng thời giải đáp cách sử dụng nhiều chỗ đọc chả hiểu vẹo gì. Tuy nhiên do các câu mẫu bằng tiếng Nhật có độ chính xác khá cao và tương đối dễ hiểu nên sách hoàn toàn có thể dùng để tham khảo được.

Code:

http://japanologic.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=22&start=1230

Tên tháng

Shakespeare's TL

(This post will be subject to edit)

del's notepad

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