Japanese thread

[Sầu Thiên Cô Nữ Hiệp]

^x2 Thường thì có 2 bộ Genki với Minna là chính. 2 cái đấy đều dùng để tự học được cả.

Genki tên đầy đủ là gì thế, mình chưa nghe bao h.
Etou, cái giáo trình Minna thấy có 2 cuốn, mình tải về thì thấy ngữ pháp + từ vựng y hết cuốn "Shin Nihongo no Kiso". Cuốn này thì trường mình dạy hết 50 bài ồi. Còn giáo trình nào khác cao hơn ko bạn dê

 

[delacroix01]

http://www.thejapanguy.com/a-japan-guy-review-genki-japanese-for-buy-people-pimsleur/

Còn nếu thiếu material nữa thì: http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6672792/Japanese_Language_Learning_Pack

 

[Runan]

Học Jap cũng chẳng cần nhiều giáo trình làm gì, mình hồi trước cũng tải về cả đống tư liệu, đến cuối cùng thì vẫn stick với mỗi cái minna no nihongo , 2 quyển sơ cấp và trung cấp của nó cung cấp đủ kiến thức để thi đậu N2 rồi, N1 thì chịu khó tu từ vựng, Kanji nhiều nhiều là ổn chứ ngữ pháp cũng không khó hơn so N2 là bao

 

[thonglinh90]

Vậy à? Có bản download bản eng ko?
Chứ tài liệu mình tải trên mạng thì
1. toàn Jap (đọc ko hiểu lấy gì học )
2. ra tiệm thì có sách ghi hẳn tên "Tiếng Nhật dành cho mọi người"
Mà mình bán tín bán nghi cái sách này ko nó lại troll mình
Tóm lại: Các thanh niên có bản download eng ko cho xin =.="

 

[delacroix01]

Bổ sung về ～てもらう

For the past few weeks I have been reading Tae Kim's grammar guide, and for the most parts what he wrote seems to be right. Still, there are some sections that don't sound very convincing to me, for example:

4.14.4 When to use 「もらう」

「もらう」 meaning, "to receive" has only one version unlike 「あげる／くれる」 so there's very little to explain. One thing to point out is that since you receive from someone, 「から」 is also appropriate in addition to the 「に」 target particle.

Examples
(１)  私が友達にプレゼントをもらった。
- I received present from friend.
(２)  友達からプレゼントをもらった。
- I received present from friend.
(３)  これは友達に買ってもらった。
- About this, received the favor of buying it from friend.
(４)  宿題をチェックしてもらいたかったけど、時間がなくて無理だった。
- I wanted to receive the favor of checking homework but there was no time and it was impossible.

「もらう」 is seen from the perspective of the receiver, so in the case of first-person, others usually don't receive things from you. However, you might want to use 「私からもらう」 when you want to emphasive that fact that the other person received it from you. For instance, if you wanted to say, "Hey, I gave you that!" you would use 「あげる」. However, you would use 「もらう」 if you wanted to say, "Hey, you got that from me!"

(５)  その時計は私からもらったのよ。
- [He] received that watch from me.

From my own experience, this does not look like all there is to the verb もらう, especially when it is used after a て-form verb, e.g. 返してもらう is a line that I often see and hear, and it always sounds like the speaker is going to take something back with his/her own judgment (sometimes even by force), not considering it a favor at all. The line sounds like "I'm going to have you give it back to me", and ～てもらう in general sounds like "to have someone doing something". Could you please tell me if I got anything wrong? This is an important grammar point and I need to be clear about it.

Excellent question! While Tae Kim actually generally does a good job of teaching beginning-level Japanese, people should know that s/he is a Japanese-learner him/herself. When s/he speaks freely in Japanese in the non-lesson parts of his/her website, s/he makes quite a few mistakes and uses very unnatural phrasings.

That said, what you have stated is correct. もらう/あげる/くれる are much more complex in reality than many Japanese-learners would tend to think because they have only been taught limited usages of those super-important verbs. A thick book can be written on the three verbs alone.

There are times when we native speakers use "verb + もらう" as a softer (and sometimes not even so soft) form of imperative. In fact, it can be used to order people around. However, books and teachers usually will only say that もらう is used to express "a voluntary favor" from someone. 　

BTW, Kim's sentence #5 above sounds pretty unnatural to me. It is 100% grammatical but who would say it in real life? It sounds very patronizing and it does more than just "emphasize on who gave you the object" as Kim says.

Nói chung do ít qua bên này nên giờ chỉ có mấy cái quan trọng nhất tớ mới post, còn lại phần note đầy đủ từ mớ câu hỏi của tớ bên jref và japanologic sẽ được post bên SA. Nếu ai quan tâm có thể qua box Japanese Language bên đó đọc cho biết.

 

[delacroix01]

Giải đáp về 殿 (どの)

I always thought 殿 (どの) is an archaic version of さん, but recently, while I was playing a game based on Romance of the Three Kingdoms, during the battle of Chang Ban, I could hear Zhao Yun say 劉備殿 while the English translation says "Lord Liu Bei". While the English phrasing is historically right since Zhao Yun is a general under Liu Bei, is the suffix 殿 actually closer to 様 than さん?

Not sure where you have seen 殿 used to mean さん. 　　さん is pretty casual while 殿 and 様 are always formal. 殿 is an honorific that was used to refer to or address a high-ranked man like "lord" or "master" in English. So, it is kind of like (but not the same as) 様 in our time.

殿 was actually used to address anyone, regardless of genfer, in snail mail sent by city hall and many companies until only about 30 years ago when it was changed to 様 as it looked too formal and archaic.

殿 is still used in commendation cermonies, both in oral speech and writing.

Bổ sung về 僕 và 君 (ai hay dịch nhạc thì nên đọc)

This is something that has been on my mind for over a year. The two personal pronouns 僕 and 君 are used very frequently in contemporary music, and in many cases, the songs I hear that use such pronouns are about love and are sung by female singers (for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-h6Vy9vHbA). Do the two pronouns suggest gender like they would in conversations, or are they used with different meanings? This site says that 僕 and 君 have a poetic sense, so I'm wondering if this is the case.

This is an important question to me because I always find it difficult to decide which personal pronouns I should use whenever I attempt to translate a Japanese song into my first language. Unlike English, most personal pronouns in my mother language are gender-specific, which is a big headache when it comes to song translations, so it will be a great help if I can get the Japanese pronouns clear.

A very difficult question and one that is often answered incorrectly on the internet to my dismay.

君 is much more often used in creative writing like song lyrics and manga than in people's daily speech. In real life, we use the other person's name or nickname WAY more often. Presently in real life, 君 is much more often used by men to address women than the other way around. However, in the world of creative writing, 君 is gaining popularity among female characters in addressing male ones. Regarding the poetic sense, I DO NOT agree with that website at all because it is more about the context than the pronouns.

One thing that the vast majority of Japanese-learners, even the ones that have been residing in Japan for up to a year or so, are not aware of is that many of the Japanese that they get to talk to and/or are taught Japanese by tend to use pronouns way more often than the "other" Japanese even though the "other" group outnumbers the pronoun-users by a landslide.

Regarding 僕, does it suggest the gender of the main character of a song? Sometimes I find it difficult to conclude if the lyrics are the words of a guy or a girl. For example, this song is sung by a female singer, but uses 僕 as the first-person pronoun, and has lines that sound like what a guy would say, like ずっとキミヲマモル. While this doesn't matter with English translations at all since "I" is the only first-person pronoun, it's the primary concern when it comes to translating to a highly gender-conscious language as my first language, so I'm hoping to find a way to solve it.

I listened to the song and it is a song in which a male speaks to a female. In Japanese culture, the gender of the singer does not matter the least bit. It is the lyrics that matter. You will hear male singers singing the emotions of a female and vice versa.

Examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfls4tcjhbE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CxIYJ9X_GI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b3x5-RMNsQ

In this very popular song, the female singer sings both ways with parts of the song from the male point of view and the other parts from the female's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu_Dlu0Wk70

Tóm lại, muốn xác định vụ xưng hô khi dịch nhạc thì cần đọc kỹ lời rồi hẵng quyết định. Với mấy bài ca sĩ dùng 私 với 君 (chẳng hạn phần lớn nhạc của Misato Aki) thì thường chỉ cần "em" với "anh" là xong, còn như mấy bài của KOTOKO hay fripSide thì lâu hơn, nhưng dựa vào context thì sẽ ra. Còn dạng lời của cả 2 nv thì dễ thấy nhất là mấy bài trong Aquarion.

 

[nhongcon_pupa]

Mình có thắc mắc là trong bài 雪の華, câu đầu tiên thế này: のびた人陰を　舗道に並べ
Nhưng khi hát thì ca sĩ không phát âm chữ 人 mà hát thành のびた + 陰 luôn. Xin hỏi vì sao? :148:

 

[delacroix01]

Ờ cái này thì gần như bài nào cũng có hết. Căn bản với nhạc, manga hay novel thì việc viết 1 đằng đọc 1 nẻo là bt. Quan trọng là lúc hát ra thì lời phải khớp với nhịp nhạc, còn kanji chỉ là để giải nghĩa cho trọn vẹn thôi.

Cậu để ý trong này sẽ thấy 2 chỗ その道標 với その陽光 ko hát thành みちしるべ với ようこう mà thành しるべ với ひかり, vừa đảm bảo đúng nhịp mà lúc đọc lời thì ko bị nhầm sang nghĩa khác. Riêng chỗ 陽光 thì 陽 đứng 1 mình đọc là ひ, bản thân 光 đọc là ひかり, kết hợp 2 cái lại đọc thành ひかり (tương tự lúc đọc tên người), còn cái 陽光 là để ghi rõ ra ánh sáng ở đây là ánh dương chứ ko phải thứ ánh sáng nào khác.

 

[delacroix01]

Hôm qua mang 12 câu vd lấy từ 4 trang đầu cuốn "500 mẫu văn phạm tiếng Nhật trung cấp" của Trần Việt Thanh đi nhờ đánh giá hộ (lật cả đầu lẫn cuối sách đều ko thấy cái tên Nhật nào nên hơi nghi ngờ về tính chính xác) và kết quả là như sau:

1. あの人について私は何も知りません。
2. この町の歴史についてちょっと調べてみようと思っている。
3. この日本文化史についてレポートは大変よくできている。
4. 昨日の小論文の試験は「私の国の教育制度について」という題だった。

Only #3 is incorrect. It needs a の after the ついて. The others are not only correct but also very natural-sounding.

1. この問題に関してはさまざまな方面から意見が寄せられた。
2.「本件に関しては、現在調査中でございまして、結論が出るまでにはもうしばらく時間をいただきたいと思います。」
3. 今回の「余暇の利用」に関してのアンケートはとても興味深かった。
4. この論文は日本の宗教史に関する部分の調べ方が少し足りない。

All correct.

1. 小林先生は勉強が嫌いな学生に対して、とりわけ親しみをもって接していた。
2. この賞は特に女性の地位向上に功績のあった人に対して贈られるものです。
3. 「今のランさんの発言に対して、何か反論のある方は手を挙げてください。」
4. 青年の、親に対する反抗心は、いつ頃生まれ、いつ頃消えるのだろうか。

All "correct" but they could have done better with their punctuations.
1. No comma needed.
3. No comma needed but I cannot say the use of a comma is wrong because it is a quote and the speaker may have actually used a pause there.
4. Too many commas used. I myself would use none. If I had to use one, I would use it after the 反抗心は.

The book also stated that について is often accompanied by verbs like 調べる、書く、考える、聞く、話す, and に対して is often followed by words expressing opposition such as 反抗、反論、抗議. Is this information valid?

It is valid to a large extent but one can use 反論 and 抗議 with ～～について as well.

The problem is that none of the staff behind the book is Japanese, and some of the examples sound odd to my ear, so could someone please evaluate them?

I recognize these sentences because they are all from どんな時どう使う日本語表現文型500, the authors of which are Japanese (as far as I can tell). Is that not the book you're reading?

(By the way, the の missing from #3 is present in my copy, so I assume it's a typo.)

Như vậy có thể kết luận đây là sách dịch lậu từ sách của Nhật. Ngoài mấy lỗi nói ở trên thì sách còn sử dụng romaji thay vì furigana (chắc do in từ năm 2004), bản dịch tiếng Việt của các vd nghe khá cứng (khả năng 90% là dịch từ tiếng Anh), đồng thời giải đáp cách sử dụng nhiều chỗ đọc chả hiểu vẹo gì. Tuy nhiên do các câu mẫu bằng tiếng Nhật có độ chính xác khá cao và tương đối dễ hiểu nên sách hoàn toàn có thể dùng để tham khảo được.

 

[Pandora]

Ờ mà, hỏi bạn delacroix01 cái. Cái cụm について cái cách dùng cụ thể của nó là để làm gì vậy? Cái cụm này dùng rất nhiều mà mình vẫn chưa hiểu rõ cách xài của nó.